This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Discar: Temporarily removed this
- Chao Rinshen: Ras Teil Mai Magiscir Magister (it's possible that it's actually a deformation of Negi's, even an unintentional one)
Until we figure it out, to keep an edit war from cropping up. The main problem seems to be one of translation. Every scanlation I've read lists Chao's name as Lingshen, and her activation key as "Last Tale My Magic Scir" (approximately, I don't have it in front of me ATM). So what's the word on that?
Medinoc: Well, it's "Last Tale My Magic Skill Magister" in my official French translation of vol. 17. Unfortunately, the Omake pages don't explain the activation key, only the spells. IIRC, she's listed as Tchao Lingshen (this T feels like it was added because Readers Are Morons).
dkellis: The version in the (now-removed) example is almost accurate to the Del Rey English version: "Rast Teil Mai Magiscir Magister" (ie missing a "t"). Oddly, the Del Rey English version also transliterates her name as "Chao Lingshen", so I don't know what the example is drawing from.
Canon Rap: Rinshen is just the Japanese pronunciation of Lingshen (not that 'ling-shen' itself is correct, but anyway). Unlike every other example on that list, Akamatsu never gave the romanisation for Chao's activation key (and IIRC, Anya's), so there is no 'official' version.
Now that I mention it, I'll go fix Nutmeg's.
Discar: Okay, just checked: One Manga
, Manga Fox, and Manga Toshokan all list her key as "Last Tale My Magic Scir Magister." So...that's probably what we should list it as.
Red Savant: I would definitely say that 'My Magic' is correct, or at least what Akamatsu intended.
Discar: Can we get some more entries under By the Power of Grayskull! for the magic activation keys? I'm thinking of Yue, specifically, but I'm sure there are others we left off. I'd do it, but I don't speak a word of Latin. EDIT: Sorry, I also meant that we need translations for the keys. Most of them are Latin phrases, I'm pretty sure.
ILP: I tidied up a little. For the record, the plural of "Octopus" is not "Octopi" since it's a Greek word, not a (second declension) Latin word. Use either the original Greek "Octopodes" or "Octopuses". Kind regards...
Rakath: Um, I translated the Negima Love Negi list (well, the order, I didn't translate the catagories for the smaller numbers). I can't actually read Janapese, but I can match the character's names easily enough. Some of the placements like Yuna and Misa surprise me:
- 1st (57) - Miyazaki Nodoka
- 2nd (56) - Kagurazaka Asuna and Ayase Yue
- 4th (52) - Yukihiro Ayaka
- 5th (51) - Sasaki Makie
- 6th (48) - Kuu Fei
- 7th (45) - Karakuri Chachamaru
- 8th (42) - Sakurazaki Setsuna
- 9th (40) - Konoe Konoka
- 10th (39) - Akashi Yuna
- 11th (35) - Hasegawa Chisame
- 12th (33) - Kakizaki Misa
- 13th (32) - Izumi Ako and Evangeline McDowell
- 15th (31) - Okochi Akira
- 16th (30) - Nagase Kaede
- 17th (29) - Saotome Haruna and Naba Chizuru
- 19th (28) - Aisaka Sayo and Shiina Sakurako
- 21st (27) - Chao Lingshen
- 22nd (26) - Kugimiya Madoka and Yotsuba Satsuki
- 24th (25) - Kasuga Misora
- 25th (22) - Murakami Natsumi
- 26th (21) - Asakura Kazumi, Narutaki Fuka, Narutaki Fumika, and Tatsumiya Mana
- 30th (20) - Hakase Satomi
- 31st (??) - Zazie Rainyday
Citizen: I thought Chamo had different numbers for different kinds of love, in his list in the manga...
Shay Caron: According to a translated version of chapter 173, the values are, in order from left to right, "Friendship", "Closeness", "Love", "Affection", "Sensuality", and (obviously) "Total". Can't speak for the accuracy of those particular word choices, but it's probably pretty close.
Rakath: Those would make sense. Friendship's high count is Kuu Fei, Closeness is Asuna, Love is Yue (not Nodoka), Affection is a tie between Nodoka and Ayaka, and Sensuality is Nodoka. Following that set of orders. All of those do follow the series.
Sesoron: The official translations by Del Rey when Chamo pulls out the chart in chapter 173 (volume 19) are Friendship, Mother Love, Affection, Romance, and Eros, respectively. For anyone who was curious and didn't want to go hunting.
Arima: Some of the Eros ratings really surprised me. Ayaka is only a 5, but Setsuna is a 7 (towards Negi, not Konoka)? Asuna is an 8? And my favorite, Evangeline is a 14?
Ekul: I might mention that it is mentioned in the story that Setsuna is actually attracted to Negi's 16-year old form, so that would make her either Bisexual, or attracted to males physically and Konoka romantically. Ayaka doesn't make much sense to me though... I mean, she gave us the picture for Marshmallow Hell!
Japanese Teeth: Well, there is the possibility that Ayaka's Shotacon tendencies are a big sister complex manifesting in a rather over-the-top fashion. An early chapter did establish that she kind of views Negi as the little brother she would have had. As far as Setsuna goes, just because she's a lesbian doesn't mean that she couldn't find men physically, (if not emotionally) attractive, and 7 doesn't seem to be a particularly high score, especially compared to Nodoka's 15. The highest single attribute ranking on the chart is an 18, so a 7 seems to be on the lower end of the scale. It's probably more along the lines of "he's kind of handsome" as opposed to "he's HOT". As for Evangeline, well she goes into full Vamp mode a few times, which is more than enough to qualify for a 14.
Rakath: Eva can't have Nagi, but she can manipulate and twist Negi into the same role, they look similar enough. The numbers are really thought out. And Zazie's still make me laugh.
Shotgun Ninja: Setsuna's 7 (and Chisame's 8, for that matter) can be explained by one simple fact: Everyone is Shota for Negi.
- Rape Is Ok When It Is Female On Male (not really, but the girls kinda push it sometimes...)
...let's not toss the term about so lightly, OK?
SAMAS Well, the actual reason is explained better in the actual Trope: That a lot of the things the girls do with and to Negi wouldn't be as acceptable with the genders reversed.
Ununnilium: IMHO, it's not that trope anyway, and shouldn't be in there. Didn't we have a different trope about things being "okay" for one gender and not the other? Edit: Moved it to Dismissed Gender.
Looney Toons: SAMAS, please do not change the age back. Both manga and anime specify that the girls are 13 years old and middleschoolers in the equivalent of 8th grade. Might I also point out episode 10, where they are being bullied by high school girls on the volleyball court? If they were 15 they would be the high school girls.
SAMAS They are Japanese Middle School students. That's effectively 9th grade, not 10. Furthermore, the birhdates given are four or five years before Negi's. In vol. 7, Makie says she's 14. As does Ayaka in vol. 8, and Ako in volume 14. Also in volume 14, Kakizaki, in imagining Negi as her boyfriend when they're older, has their ages given as 15(negi) and 20(Kakizaki). She also, in the same scene, states that the age difference between Negi and most of the other girls is only four or five years.
Vol. 1: Asuna's birthday is given as being in 1988. That would put her age in 2003, when the manga takes place, as 14(she turns 15 in volume 4). So do Nodoka, Yue, Haruna, Ako, and Yuna. In volume 2, Negi's birth is given as 1994. With the exception of Chachamaru(who was born in 2001), I can't find any girl's birthday that falls after march of 1989, making them at least just turned 14 by the time the manga starts.
- Oooh, aren't *you* in for a Mind Screw.
Ununnilium: Changed it to "at least", both to compensate and for characters like Evangeline.
SAMAS What about Chachamaru? She's like 7-8 years younger than Negi. ^_^
Ununnilium: Ah, well, I'll eat your soul.
ahem
Ack Sed: Kujibiki Unbalance and its associated entry has ruined Negima!? for me. As a fan of the manga it was hard enough,but now I can't watch any of it without ticking off the tropes like a bored teacher taking roll call ("Fanservice? Present. Panty Shot? Present. Small Girl, Big Gun? Here. Squick? Here,and don't try to hide yourself."). Part of it is the fact that parodies expose the weak points...of which there are many :-(
Morgan Wick: TV Tropes has ruined your life.
Citizen: Does the remake even have any panty shots? OVAs aside, I mean. And I nominate the Library Island arc/first two volumes as a Dis Continuity. That chunk of the manga put me off reading it for quite some time. And then I finally got through and reached the Festival arcs. o.o
Ack Sed: I count the underpants-falling-down bit in the title sequence as a Panty Shot,so it scrapes through,but I suppose I was thinking of the manga at the time - Ken Akamatsu likes his frillies ;-)
SAMAS: I thought that was just her skirt, not the panties, too. And who says the first two volumes are in Dis Continuity?
Citizen: I do. >=/ And a skirt falling down around the legs doesn't count as a panty shot when the waist isn't even visible. I was greatly amused when they left that bit in episode 19's chibified version of the OP; it was a non-sequitur to begin with, and in that scene it was just falling down out of nowhere!
Japanese Teeth: I don't mind the first two volumes that much. The only part that I would ignore is that dodgeball game. I think that everything else was justified as either plot set up or character development. The library island arc was really Love Hina-ish, but I think that's just Akamatsu getting into the new series. It's not as good as the rest of the series, but it's still not bad enough to ignore. But then again, I'll accept just about anything other than a really horrible Ass Pull or really bad Character Derailment.
Looney Toons: For anyone who's interested, a webpage for the live action version
now exists. I am profoundly disappointed that they apparently could not find Japanese-fluent anglo girls to play Evangeline and Zazie; I am, however, rather pleased that they actually made an effort to reproduce all the girls' hairstyles as closely as the real world allows.
Jisu: As I said on my poor neglected Not With A, Kuu Fei looks like a man.
Big T: Also looks like a case of Dawson Casting to me. I mean, Japanese girls already look younger than their western counterparts, so it's not like they had to actually be the right ages...
Amadeus Windfall: The recently-added supposed Shout-Outs to Dragonball seem mostly more like Shōnen genre things than specific Shout-Outs to me. Should they be deleted?
boonerunner: Check out this page. Do you have a better explanation for why Negi's hair grows so long?
Drow Lord: Took out the Mighty Whitey listing, which seriously didn't seem to fit. Yes, Negi starts to overshadow Kuu Fei in martial arts. He does have certain unfair magical advantages (Cantus Bellax being the major one), not to mention he learns pretty much everything super fast (he mastered Shundo in about a day as I recall). To that matter, I added Instant Expert...
Citizen: Did there used to be more spoiler tagging on this page? Not that I really mind myself, but there's a lot of post-Tournament stuff that might need covering...
Japanese Teeth: If you think it needs it, go for it. Minor developments could stay in the open, but really big stuff like the identity of the arc's Big Bad, or the revelation of who Colonel Sanders is should probably be hidden.
Rogue 7: From what I saw of the English Manga release (I read scans online), they're right at the big battle with Chao. I think that everything up to that point is reasonably left untagged (though a few major plot points could still do with spoilerfictation.
Update on that. We're now in the final rounds of the Mundus Magicus tournament; www.onemanga.com just updated the other day. In other news, I am ever more convinced that an Ala Alba/Ala Rubra team particularly with a good tactician, could take on pretty much everybody in the Potterverse (and this on top of having a better story!). Chew on that, JK!
Rogue 7: Negi himself could take on the Potterverse. He's throwing around stuff like his "thousand bolts" while Harry makes do with "Stupefy" and the like. Don't get me wrong, I love Harry Potter (and I think it's got a better plot as a whole), it's just different padigrams of how things work.
Japanese Teeth: I can imagine how Negi vs. Harry would go:
- Harry: Stup—Negi: *Uses Instant Movement to deliver an unchanted Saggita Magica-infused punch to Harry's jaw, effectively vaporizing his head.*
Unit Omega: See folks, that's the difference between Full-Contact Magic\Supernatural Martial Arts and not.
Charred Knight: Is this really necessary? Having a note that most of the tropes come from the original manga just screams Viewers Are Morons to me.
While this entry was originally written for the first TV series, be aware that the trope listing below now includes many entries that are specific to the ongoing manga, as it has since become much more Trope Overdosed than aforementioned series.
Citizen: With two distinct anime adaptations, each differing so much from the manga—which is being followed by most (I would expect) through scanlations—isn't it necessary?
Japanese Teeth: Yeah, normally we wouldn't need the note, but the animes (especially the 2nd one) are so different from the manga that we need to note it. Especially as the Genre Shift means that the manga currently barely even resembles either of the anime series.
Scud East: So you're telling me there's a character named Jack Rakan
?
I just read chapter 250 where Nodoka just thinks Yue... Is she alright... ? and in the very next panel, she actually runs into her completely by chance. Is that some variation of Speak of the Devil (think of ...) or maybe Tempting Fate ? Or some over trope I missed so far ?
ssmagus: Do we add Badass Family to the list of Tropes? with Nagi,Negi and Asuna(Chao if it counts). Konoka and her family, and others i can not think of. Edit: What about all the other Badass tropes?
Japanese Teeth: Badass Family doesn't really fit Konoka's family that well; Konoka is powerful, but she isn't really Bad Ass. The other one counts though. Feel free to add the other Bad Ass tropes as you see fit.
Discar: Removed a few examples from Worf Effect that didn't fit the trope:
- (After spending 10-odd chapters fighting Jack Rakan to a standstill, Negi loses a Curb-Stomp Battle with the governor for Ostia. Of course the governor then proceeds to hurt and humiliate a few of Negi's students, and we all know what that leads to.)
- Debatable, because if Rakan started serious then it would be even more stomp, than Godel shown on Negi.
- Actually justified, as both battles can be entirely chalked up to perfect planning by the winner.
The whole point of the Worf Effect is that a supposedly Bad Ass character is repeatedly defeated, and the viewers see them as a joke. That wasn't the case here.
I'm taking out the Negi/Fate out of the the examples of Foe Yay. There's nothing to support it. Already removed it from the Foe Yay: Anime page. If someone can give any real reason ("Fate got in Negi's face" isn't gonna cut it) then feel free to put it back.
S Storm: Anyone else think that Post-Modern Magik applies to the Negiverse?
Japanese Teeth: I'd say so. Both Post Modern Magic and Magitek are all over the place here.
Mullon: So, how attached are people to the picture?
Rogue 7: Depends. What's the alternate?
Mullon: (That was fast) That picture of the entire cast on their trip.
Rogue 7: That would seem to me to either be a bit large for the page, or shrunk down so much that it's impossible to see.
Mullon: It's also missing Sayo, and I wanted to have everyone. So never mind.
Japanese Teeth: I we want everybody (at least in 3-A), we should use the splash page from the first chapter; it has Negi, the entire class, plus a few supporting characters. The only problem is that shrinking it down would make it really hard to see. EDIT: I found a smaller version of the splash page and put it in. I had to shrink it, but you can still see everybody well enough.
Japanese Teeth: I found this
◊, which seems to be charting all the relationships among the cast as of chapter 255. I don't speak any Japanese, but I figured out a few of the colors: Pink is for romantic relationships, blue is for family, yellow is for friend/rival, and red is for pactio. Green might be a master/disciple thing, but I'm not sure how the dotted lines fit into that. Not to mention that I can only go by the pictures, since I can't read most of the names. Anybody want to have a go at translating part of it?
Radical Ed: Does Chachamaru's name qualify as a Shout-Out to Maison Ikkoku? Apparently there's a bar in that series called Cha Cha Maru, So Yeah.
Twilightdusk: I would not be surprised at all, perhaps it was even added as a nod to the people who dismissed Love Hina as having been better when it was called Maison Ikkoku. go ahead and add it.
Arima Reiji: I'm really confused by the comparison between Love Hina and Maison Ikkoku; I'm a big fan of both, but it's actually the first time I've heard of it. They are both Rom Com's that feature a Rōnin, a boarding house nakama, and have a Bottle Fairy as a major character, but I don't understand how they're like each other in any thematic aspect. I did a search, but couldn't find anything specific enough to be helpful. So I'm even more curious now... what did I miss noticing?
- Also, I could be wrong but I don't think any Shout-Out was implied. AFAIK the name Chachamaru in MI is a play on the meaning "full of chaos," while Chachamaru's name in Negima is a play on chacha being the kanji for "green tea" with a repeater character. Her surname (Karakuri) comes from the old zashiki karakuri, elaborate 18-19th century automatons that could be used for serving tea. Near the beginning, the gentle courtesy strongly implied by her participation in the tea ceremony club was one of her most prominent traits; Negima!? actually plays with that quite a bit.
Red Savant: What happened to the examples on about half the entries? Someone appears to have done a little clean-up, thereby making quite a few trope entries confusing.
Arima Reiji: Frustration = Accidentally paging away from an edit. And I Must Scream = Doing so in the middle of a massive combination add-explanations-to-blank-tropes / cleanup and having to start over from scratch. Heads-up, one change is that I'm planning to make the grossly oversized Shout-Out section a collapsible folder and organize it into examples from FF / DBZ / etc. Please poke me in the next few hours if you know of a good reason not to.
Arima Reiji: Al103, could you please explain what you see as the difference between "Mentioned in passing but rarely (i.e. <2% of all instances of magic) shown in-panel," and "mostly averted for the main cast but widespread in MW"? I don't understand why you're so insistent on showing that it's widely used even though we rarely see it. Tropes are primarily about what's actually in the story, not what you can infer from it. We usually leave inferences to critique and fanfiction - trope listing is not meant to be critique. (^_^)
Al103: 1. I actually doubt that it's averted for the main cast too because it have longest list of examples in anime section on Mundane Utility page 2. That it's not on screen 99% of the time don't change fact that negimaverse magic do have widespread mundane utility and I can make that example section at least 5 times bigger if apply all cases when it was used for purely mundane things like cargo shipping, food cooking, healing and news announcements by "npc" and not "adventurers" and that magic in MW replace our world technology is heavy implied 3. Averted for Mundane Utility is "it have obvious mundane uses but it's not used so" - and it IS used so in result making it NOT aversion in any way.
Arima Reiji: Based on the examples listed on the Mundane Utility page, a suggestion which you're free to dismiss out of hand - "Noticeable in Negima! and early in the manga. As the manga progresses, such uses become less frequent and tend to be implied rather than shown."
Mind, I still think that in the overall scheme of things, examples that comprise less than 1% of its usage are still "mostly averted". I'm not going to keep quibbling about it, though.
Al103: Read Averted Trope page. It's NOT what averted trope is. It would be averted if something could be "troped" but didn't, which in case of Mundane Utility is something could be used for mundane means but isn't - which is NOT case here. 1% or 99% does NOT matter. And while number of example diminishes scale of examples is so big that it matter much more than that.
Arima Reiji: Rereading the page reminded me something that brought me to the same conclusion from a different reason: Aversions generally aren't worth explicit mention, and this isn't a particularly exceptional example to warrant it, so it doesn't matter.
That being over and done with... it's a moot point here, but aversion is the unexplained absence of a trope that would normally be evoked by one that's present. There's no explanation for why peaceful mages who we repeatedly hear just want to help the world (evoking Mundane Utility) actually spend 99% of their time destroying the landscape (averting Mundane Utility).
As far as "all or none" logic? By that token, Gilligan's Island plays Heroic Rescue straight, because after an overwhelming majority of aversions and subversions, there's a sorta-OVA where they DO finally get rescued. But if you ask the average person what they remember about it, it's the constant aversion and subversion. Hence, Just Eat Gilligan.
Al103: you are wrong here, it's like declaring that 99% of Earth population are soldiers based on war films. The very fact that in story about soldiers and adventurers there is enough Mundane Utility shows that it's not averted.
Medinoc: Can't we just say it's "rather implied than shown" ?
Arima Reiji: Dropping "aversion" altogether per previous suggestions. Its utility is truly negligible compared to its apparent potential to upset people. Please note that the second sentence barely touches on the question of how rare or common it is - "less frequent" means only that it's still present but not as often. Hopefully this will suffice as common ground?
Arima Reiji: Open question to all - can anyone recall examples of these in Negima?
- Brand X (as opposed to Bland-Name Product)
- Goldilocks And The Mines Of Moria (as opposed to Did We Just Have Tea with Cthulhu?)
- Improbable Food Budget
- Magnificent Seven
Also, does it actually add anything to the page to list everyone's spell activation keys under By the Power of Grayskull!? Even The Other Wiki has repudiated lists for their own sake; they seem to mostly be limited to fancyclopedias these days.
